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« Click the color and not the word for this... | Main | Unanchoring the citizenship of this... »

June 18, 2005

Comments

Ith

It's about time the rest of the country has to share the finacial pain. Long past time, in fact.

Aaron

Reading that article, I have to ask: Why the hell am I paying for this, and how is this a federal problem?

These are illegals who *committed crimes* seperate from their illegal immigration. This is only a problem because local authorities in cities all over the country have refused to treat the illegal immigration itself as a crime, thus removing those people from circulation to commit crimes against Los Angelinos.

In other words, they've rolled out the red carpet for these individuals and their criminal behavior. If Los Angeles was incurring these costs in *enforcing immigration laws*, that'd be a different story, but the local malfeasance that is Special Order 40 is a local problem. We pay for enough of Chicago's lunacy without this, too.

tallglassofmilk

Slow down, cowboy, "we" haven't rolled out the carpet to anyone, unless you define "we" as the federal government welcome wagon.

First of all, preventing illegal immigrants from crossing our insecure national borders is not the responsibility of state and local government.

Second of all, the federal government makes laws that prohibit us from doing this...

Thirdly, we do not have the resources to do any of this... we're already spending money we don't have 'cause we're being forced--by the federal government--to educate them and keep them in good health. Oh, and a third of our jails are filled with them and can't be deported.

Oh yeah, and employers aren't even allowed to fire an illegal alien if he's discovered.

Damn right you should be paying for it--we have to.

Ask Dick Durbin why he is allowing this...

Aaron
First of all, preventing illegal immigrants from crossing our insecure national borders is not the responsibility of state and local government.

Second of all, the federal government makes laws that prohibit us from doing this...

Thirdly, we do not have the resources to do any of this... we're already spending money we don't have 'cause we're being forced--by the federal government--to educate them and keep them in good health. Oh, and a third of our jails are filled with them and can't be deported.

As nice as it is to be called "cowboy", I beg to differ... The Los Angeles County Sheriff's office basically said it's all the federal government's fault. I'm not trying to absolve the federal government of blame here, but come on.

Like Special Order 40 has nothing to do with it? These guys aren't being jailed because they're illegals (a financial burden that would be totally federal, since the federal government failed by letting them into the country in the first place), they're criminals because they committed crimes within our system, which is part of the normal burden carried by the LAPD, the LACS, and the California State Police, and involves people which has Los Angeles has essentially declared responsibility for. Even if they were legal immigrants, they would still be criminals for which LA has to pay.

It's not all Los Angeles' fault by any stretch of the imagination, but a statement like that that attempts to absolve local law enforcement sanctuary policies of their role in enabling illegal immigration is absolutely astounding. I mean, I'm sure you'll agree that it helps make the gangers comfortable knowing that they will never be harassed about their immigration status in LA.

Do you suppose that if the cops promised not to investigate child molestation, that the child molestation rate would remain level, or that child molestors would not pour into the city by the thousands?

If Los Angeles were attempting to enforce immigration laws and still being hit with this cost, then they'd have a place to demand federal assistance. As it stands, maybe the Sheriff should consider billing Chief Bratton's office for some of that money, and we really ought to consider withholding federal funds from cities with sanctuary laws. Why should we subsidize the outcome of the LAPD's deliberate selective blindness to crime?

Bratton once said that if you don't like Special Order 40, you should leave the state. Now, even if you do, he still gets to bill you.

tallglassofmilk

[Like Special Order 40 has nothing to do with it?]

Of course it does! But why should Bratton them over to ICE when ICE is going to turn around and put 'em back on the street? At least with Special Order 40 in effect, the criminals are behind bars.

From July, 2003 through Feb, 2005 ICE made 5,000 arrests--with estimates of the illegal aliens among us as high as 20 million.

You do the math. What percentage of that you think is Bratton's fault?

tallglassofmilk

I stand corrected on this...

The estimated number of illegal aliens is not 20 million, but 25.

Numbers of illegal aliens

Aaron
You do the math. What percentage of that you think is Bratton's fault?
Take a look at Anaheim's program, where they brought in a part-time ICE officer to show up three times a day to rearrest illegal gangers they couldn't charge with a crime and have them deported. It apparently has had some effect, and there's no reason LA couldn't take a similar (and virtually free) path to at least give ICE the *option* of deporting them, possibly greatly reducing the burden of dealing with suspected local criminals released back onto the streets despite having no legal right to be on them. Heck, they might even stay out of LA once they ran back across the border.

I mean, maybe it doesn't get media coverage, but I've never heard anyone in Los Angeles leadership even imply that Special Order 40 has squat to do with their desire to keep illegals behind bars. From outside the fishbowl, the City Council loves the illegals, and Bratton is beholden to the City Council.

tallglassofmilk

[Special Order 40 has squat to do with their desire to keep illegals behind bars.]

Well, we're talking about the cost of keeping illegals behind bars here. If SO 40 has nothing to do with that, why did you mention this...

We haven't even touched on the ones the LAPD doens't detain. That'd be when we'd want to discuss SO 40.

And just so it's perfectly clear, I DO NOT AGREE with Bratton's positon on Special Order 40, even if eliminated, it'll barely make a dent in this...

Again, if they weren't here, we wouldn't be discussing this... If the ICE deported them all when they were turned over, we wouldn't be discussing this... we'd be discussing throwing Bratton out.

I think Bratton needs to be pushed on the issue, but quite frankly, I'd rather have 'em behind bars until the ICE gets its act together and/or we get more resources to do this...

We would need so many more cops cause all they'd be doing would be driving car loads of illegals back to the station every time they [fill in the blank].

There wouldn't be any left for security at all of Hollywood's important events. Of course I sound like I'm mocking this, but I'm really not. As many said we should have known ahead of time that planes would be flown into the WTC, we should realize that a bomb at an event like the Godless Self-Important Actors Celebrating Themselves Awards™ is iminent.

By the way, a 2% arrest rate on the part of the ICE is pathetic. That's the organization that should have officers out in the field rounding them up. But then, how would they do that without racial profiling. We wouldn't want to make our safety and national security a priority over protecting someone from being offended.

Aaron
Again, if they weren't here, we wouldn't be discussing this... If the ICE deported them all when they were turned over, we wouldn't be discussing this... we'd be discussing throwing Bratton out.

I think Bratton needs to be pushed on the issue, but quite frankly, I'd rather have 'em behind bars until the ICE gets its act together and/or we get more resources to do this...

I'm totally in agreement. All I'm saying, my dear frosty glass, is that nobody who belongs behind bars has to be released or not put there, nor does anybody extra have to be arrested, for the illegals who *do* get themselves arrested for gang affiliations and the like, but who can't yet be charged, to be handed over to ICE instead of being dumped back on the street. LA simply doesn't even wanna do that. This leaves one with the impression that they don't actually want the illegals out, they just want to declare the city a haven without being responsible for the cost of the accompanying rampaging crime.

I'd happily pay for them to do their part in the fight against illegal immigration (even if the border patrol isn't), but why exactly am I paying for them *not* to do their part?

tallglassofmilk
tallglassofmilk

[Oh, and I dare you to tell the Border Patrol to their face]

By the way, I got schooled by the Head of the Border Patrol Union on this... so I'm obliged to pass it on.

Aaron
And what your pretty little head is missing dear is that it's ICE that is putting them back on the street.
I think we're talking about two different things: The illegals that LAPD currently jails belong there and that's fine. The problem is that *many*, maybe even most, arrests do not result in charges.

*They are still illegal immigrants*, but without charges, LAPD lets them go because they refuse to investigate their immigration status.

By contrast, other jurisdictions have chosen to have an ICE guy hang out at the jailhouse so that the illegals they can't charge are rearrested for deportation, so that they have the looming threat and at least a chance of actually being deported. This has apparently been an effective deterrent to illegals considering criminal careers.

LAPD won't even do *this*. That's my point. It'd hardly be a major burden on them to do something like this, but they simply have no interest in it, and actively refuse to cooperate with ICE in apparent defiance of federal law and professional courtesy, which is the story with virtually all sanctuary policices.

I'm not talking about handing convictable criminals to ICE *instead* of jailing them, or about launching a major new sweep. I'm just talking about handling the known criminals they already arrest but can't charge. It indicates a certain, er, lack of commitment.

Oh, and I dare you to tell the Border Patrol to their face their not "doing their part."
You're right, that's unfair of me: What I should've said is that they aren't *allowed* to do their jobs. In fact, I suppose the same would go for LAPD, although the blame is fixed somewhat more, shall we say, *within* the organization, not just without. Total agreement.

tallglassofmilk

One more time, we don't have the resources!

All of what you're saying is lovely. Who's going to pay for it?

It costs money to jail these people while the federal government sits on their ass and doesn't prosecute or deport them, or takes forever. Why should the city of LA incur costs of holding them when in the end they're just going to be released?

Who's going to pay for the additional cops salaries and benefits? On whose dime will the new jails to hold them be built? And who will pay to staff them? Should that all be our burden too?

Aaron

And by the way mo chuisle...

See also: Get welfare immediately by hopping over the border and having a kid! Hate to break it to ya, Sweetie, but you're already payin' for this...
Total, universal, freakin' agreement. There's no excuse for people to be able to do this. I'm keenly aware of the ways the federal government screws us on this, but as I said before, there's plenty of blame to smear all over everybody, and I'm not going to excuse the LAPD's role in this just because somebody higher up is screwing us, too. Paying for the LAPD's failures, especially while their colleagues gloat, makes me pissed at *them*. I'm *already* pissed at the feds.

The idea of cops selectively enforcing the law is about as appealing to me as a waitress who selectively brings me my order. I'm certainly not going to listen silently to some spokesplant going on about how it's everyone's fault but theirs that local law enforcement has a formal policy against enforcing the law. It's a big ole' crap pie, and everybody gets a piece.

I don't disagree with anything you said about this in the original post, especially the point about everyone being asked to pay for this attracting much-needed rage, but that doesn't change the fact that that statement from the sheriff's office is absolutely jaw-dropping, as is the idea that we should subsidize the LAPD's behavior.

They should be getting bounties on illegals they turn in for deportation (in fact, that's a good idea), not on the illegals they don't. The feds are wrong both to fund this and not to take meaningful steps, but LA is wrong both to embrace sanctuary and to demand that the feds go even further in the wrong direction.

Aaron
All of what you're saying is lovely. Who's going to pay for it?
Like I've said, I don't harbor a single objection to federal funds being used to pay for the LAPD to investigate, arrest, and hold illegal immigrants for deportation. What I object to is federal funds being used to pay for them not to do so.

If Los Angeles law enforcement doesn't see a problem with undermining federal immigration law, clearly they don't really need the federal government's help all that much after all. (Same goes for Denver, Chicago, etc.) There's a barrel of precedent for this kind of indirect persuasion, and it's historically extremely effective.

If they drop the sanctuary policies, they can have all the money they need, plus a little extra and a heavily armed team of ski-masked federal goons with a blackhawk. Whatever. However, as it stands, the federal government could get serious, and LAPD would apparently still refuse to cooperate.

How would *you* feel if you knew border patrol was getting a billion dollars of our money, but it was understood that they would still not actually be able to do anything?

tallglassofmilk

[However, as it stands, the federal government could get serious, and LAPD would apparently still refuse to cooperate.]

When that happens I will personally go over and kick Bratton's ass so no worries.

[How would *you* feel if you knew border patrol was getting a billion dollars of our money, but it was understood that they would still not actually be able to do anything?]

Do you mean how *do* I feel?

Aaron
Do you mean how *do* I feel?
Well, I meant a billion *extra*, but yeah, basically, that's my point.

The federal government shouldn't fund this because they should be fixing the problem in the first place. Two wrongs don't make a right, they just cancel each other out and screw up my tax refund.

tallglassofmilk

That's right! Have you told your resident dick, who is co-sponsoring a bill to create an amnesty for illegal agricultural workers in 2005, this...?

Do you know that he cosponsored a bill to repeal the federal ban against granting illegal aliens in-state tuition and cosponsored bill to reward illegal aliens with in-state tuition and amnesty in 2003-2004?

And that he cosponsored a bill to create an amnesty for illegal agricultural workers in 2003-2004

And that in 2002 he Cosponsored--with Kennedy--legislation that would assist illegal immigration by compromising immigration laws?

And that he voted for an amnesty for illegal aliens in 2000?

And that he opposed mandatory workplace verification programs in 1996?

And that also in 1996 he voted to continue chain migration, which is a huge part of the reason we have such a fucking mess.

I love to see a copy of your letter to Senator Dick telling him how you feel about his this...

All Immigration Votes of Senator Dick Durbin

Aaron

I may have some fun with that one... I knew he voted for that idiocy but I didn't realize he'd sponsored/cosponsored so much of it. I think he's 3 years away from being the former Senator from Illinois.

Moze

You two don't make easy reading on a late night drive-by, do you? I'll be back to this for further consideration... Great debate, even if in the end you two come down on the same side...

BTW--happy fathers day to all the dads out there...

Cheers,

Wombat

man i waded part way through that it's erm..3;30am..then i thought i got lost in a personal aaron forum or something and skipped back to check the latest tgom updates...

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