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« Outrage over the beheading of this... | Main | The series' finale of this... »

May 13, 2004

Comments

rock city

Drink this... I don't think you want to get into a disturbing quotes from scripture debate. But if so, here's one from your Bible, regarding what to do with non-believers:

"Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

There's plenty more where that came from. It's not a good idea to generalize all people in a religion as followers of the most extreme and violent passages written in scripture. There remain millions upon millions of Christians, Jews, and Muslims who do not practice the murder of non-believers, even though each of their respective scriptures call for it. Is the above quote from Deuteronomy "true" Judaism or Christianity?

tallglassofmilk

Well, I posted this cause I thought it was interesting and comes from a Muslim's perspective--not mine.

Anyone who wants to provide me with links or videos of current beheadings by Christians, feel free. I will be happy to post them.

rock city

From CNN regarding recent violence in Nigeria:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/africa/05/06/religion.nigeria.reut/

"On Sunday, hundreds of Christian Tarok militia invaded the town of Yelwa, sealed off roads to town with felled trees, and killed hundreds of Fulani with machine guns and machetes.

A Muslim community leader said 630 bodies had been buried in the town. Abdullahi D. Abdullahi showed a Reuters correspondent a foul-smelling area of freshly turned earth where he said the bodies had been buried."

No pics yet of the actual slaughter, but I don't think they were just chopping off hands.

Of course, the Muslim response began a few days ago, it was similar.

tallglassofmilk

Your CNN article fails to mention that these are retalitory attacks for the murders muslims committed last week...

http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=C50ACC24-A716-47AE-8FFBA32406C5264C

Nigerian President Olusegun Obasanjo has visited the central, mostly Muslim town of Yelwa where Christian militia staged retaliatory attacks against Muslim Fulanis, killing several hundred people.
Thursday the president met with religious leaders in the nearby city of Jos, the capital of Plateau State. The French News Agency reports Mr. Obasanjo strongly rebuked Christian and Muslim leaders for not doing more to stop the violence.

Officials say 200 to 300 Muslims were killed when ethnic Tarok Christians raided the predominately Muslim town of Yelwa nearly two weeks ago. The attack is thought to have been revenge for the killing by Muslim Fulanis of some 100 people in a Christian village a week earlier.

The violence in Plateau State has sparked riots in nearby Kano state where at least 30 people died Tuesday and Wednesday. Christian leaders there say more than 400 people were killed in the attacks by Muslim militants...

tallglassofmilk

Update: 500-600 Christians murdered (could be the 630 bodies the CNN article is referring to)

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=5137050

rock city

You're absolutely right.

The point, however, was that there are Christians who are currently chopping off heads. And the point stands, even if the Muslims started it.


tallglassofmilk

I don't really see any mention of the chopping of heads... on either side in Nigeria. Where am I missing that?

Not that I think beheading is the only deplorable act or anything, but that was where we started on this...

rock city

I was actually just extrapolating from quote: "killed hundreds of Fulani with machine guns and machetes." I am fairly certain that heads were among the body parts chopped by said machetes, although, unfortunately, I have no slide show or video.

tallglassofmilk

Well, that's a fairly shaky limb to go out on...

Christians are the minority in this region and they have been persecuted for years. It got worse when Shari'ah Law was established which I believe was in 1999.

Once again, Christians are being killed because they do not follow Allah.

And I still believe that Christians are NOT--in this day and age--killing people because they don't surrender their lives to Jesus--and they do have every right to defend their lives.

Pat

rock city: thanks for the quote, I was trying to make that point in the discussion about outrage myself.
tallglassofmilk: the Serbs, for instance, have only very lately, couple of years ago, killed inocent Muslims because the were not Christians by the thousand in so many dispicable ways. Beheading would have been one of the lesser crimes comitted, just read some of the protocolls of the International Court of Justice (which you REpublican-American unfortunately fail to support). Similar report can be found from the Philipines as well. Faith is not the issue nor is it to be taken literally, if some of the phrases declare that nonbelievers should be killed. there is more than a billion Muslims in the world and how many do you think will really want all non-muslims to be brought to the sword.

We should fight the fanatics, whether they are Islamic fanatics, Jewish fanatics, KKK, Nazi or Davidians and not bring more dissens in the world by accusing a huge group of people all together for the deeds of some

tallglassofmilk

[We should fight the fanatics, whether they are Islamic fanatics, Jewish fanatics, KKK, Nazi or Davidians and not bring more dissens in the world by accusing a huge group of people all together for the deeds of some]

Agreed. That's the main reason I am a long-time financial supporter if the Southern Poverty Law Center and their Teach Tolerance program.

"In 1991, Teaching Tolerance began supporting the efforts of K-12 teachers and other educators to promote respect for differences and an appreciation of diversity.

As part of its mandate, Teaching Tolerance publishes a semiannual self-titled magazine that profiles educators, schools and programs promoting diversity and equity in replicable ways. In addition, the program produces and distributes free, high-quality anti-bias multimedia kits."

I should state for the record though that I don't necessarily promote forced, agressive and non-natural diversity and I don't support tolerance of the people pursuing my death since it goes against my basic survival instincts.

I will kill to defend myself but would not go on the offensive. Which is what I believe the Christian doctrine dictates. I believe the Quran actively promotes death to non-believers.

The Amazing Mohammed

Pics of naked iraqis "notice lower case" was nothing more than photos from a iraqi gay life magazine called allah akbar.

Pat

tallglassofmilk: you are right in many ways (not that you need me for confirmation of that anyway).

If we Germans learned something from the past it is, that you can not show tolerance against intolerance. That would be weakness and at the end the loss of freedom, democracy and all it stands for. Quite often people mistake "apathy" or "fear-of-having-to-do-something-serious" for tolerance.

I do have problems with the behaviour of some Muslims in Germany and Europe myself, that's why I violently oppose the invitation to Turkey (though it is a laizistic country by constitution) to join the European Union, I fear that if we expand the European Union outside our fundaments of traditional Christian culture, we will kill the idea of a unified Europe rather than increase its strength.

Especially the attitude of seemingly a large number of young male Muslims in Germany towards German girls and women is very troubling. Here grows a very dangerous seed and while male chauvinism isnt't exactly an invention of the Islam, the looking down at females as kinda subhumans is very disturbing and inaccepatble.

However, I do believe that teaching tolerance on one hand and enforcing the law on the other hand will help settle that problem on the long run.

So, while I do not think that a majority of Muslim really want to kill all non-believers and though I do not believe that terrorism and violence against non-believers is fundamentally inherent in the Islamic believe, I am also well aware that caution and vigilance towards Islam is necessarry.

If I am getting on your nerves with my comments, please feel free to splip me a short mail. But I do appreciate your site and the possiblity to participate in topics that I find important.

Cheerio

tallglassofmilk

Pat, I don't agree with much of what you have to say and I find your opinion of Brad and other men in our military absolutely shameful.

However, I am pleased that you seem to have doubts about tolerating Islam blindly. I was once more tolerant like you but have become more educated to the ways of Islam's teaching since it came to my doorstep Sept. 11.

I DO NOT want to live in Dhimmitude anytime in the near future It is already happening to non-muslims throughout the east (I mention Nigeria above), Germany and the US could be next if we are "tolerant."

I invite you to peruse these articles to learn more of how the danger of Islam affects YOU:

http://answering-islam.org.uk/Silas/terrorism.htm
http://www.answering-islam.org/Silas/jihad.htm

And if you are skeptical of a Christian point of view, here's another:

http://www.hinduunity.org/articles/islamexposed/alloutwar.html

Sorry I don't have any muslim articles telling us directly of their ways. But I do have some testimonies from those who left Islam:

http://www.secularislam.org/testimonies/index.htm

And some info on Dhimmitude:

The Status of Non-Muslim Minorities Under Islamic Rule

This is no longer about US and Iraq. It's about Islam and the non-believers.

Time to weed out the terrorists and let peace grow. You're either watering the seeds of peace or allowing the weeds to destroy our garden. Which side you wanna be on?

Pat

Dear tallglassofmilk: First, let me thank you for efforts in providing me all those links. I will try to check them out tonight (my time, early afternoon your time)and will than - if you don't mind, comment on them.

In some places we are not too far away from each other. While I understand, that Sep. 11th has changed the perceptive of Americans a lot, it sometimes does also lead to a bit of monocausal conclusions.

However: what I do not understand is your attitude to weirdos like this Brad-guy. Excuse me, he wants to nuke the major Islamic cities, he calls me a f++++ nazi without probably knowing a Nazi if he runs into him, swears, uses names and than I should treat him with soft gloves? You got to be kidding! I am through my studies more or less in constant contact with military personal from the US, from Israel and from Germany (most of them now serving or having served in Kunduz, Afganistan). Those who are really in the heat of action and not pencil-pushes and wanna-be-rambos don't use this attidute or language nor utter these totally irrational and brainless ideas. This man is so full of hate, he is just happy to have one goal to point it too. Wonder where he pointed that hate in the past or will in the future.

And at no place, if I remember my lines correctly, have I spoken badly or insultingly about the US military personal in large and as such. If there was anything, I will immideately appologize because I don't think in these simple categories. I don't think that this Brad-guy speaks for a whole lot of serving military personal.

Which side I wanna be on? I grant you that: we Germans, due to our leftish-green goverment since 1998 and also a bit due to some of what we call "heart-of-Jesus-socialists" in my conservative party have given much too much way and freedom to people in Germany who oppose exactly this very freedom. It was and is a shame, that a number of terrorists of 9/11 lived a peacefull and statewise sometimes even financially supported live. Seemingly Germany was the most secure place in Europe, because due to WWI and the holocaust we Germans tend to be overcautious when dealing with minorities and foreigners.

So, while we have to change a number of things in my country to make sure we are not a super-heaven anymore for terrorists, I think the Western world together has the need to step back and evaluate some of the reasons behind the obvious problems with fanatic Islamists. It would be worthwhile another intensive discussion...... but not the place here, I presume.

I hope very much, that German governments will be more supportive of the US and a trustworthy ally again in the future - but than again the Us government will need to check and recheck again their attitude towards its allies: lieing to them about the reasons for going into war (Wolffson admited that), creating false proof for that and alienating the UN and all bit critical nations will not help in forming a true and strong alliance against terrorism.

Anyway, I am getting to long and ranting myself, sorry about that, bad manners, don't want to keep you up to long with my simple, old-Europe-fashioned ideas.

Have a good one and thanks again for the links,
Cheerio

rock city

That was really well said, Pat. Milk, this is a great site!

mjbindy1

http://answering-islam.org.uk/index.html

mjbindy1

http://answering-islam.org.uk/index.html

Mohammed

i was very upset over the whole prison abuse issue, then i became more upset when i learnt about the beheadings.
two wrongs dont make it right.
u can take many quotes and statements out of context and make of it what u may. but isnt it better to know both sides of the story than to pass judgement and start taking sides.
every surah in the quran has a background and verses were revealed to the prophet(pbuh) by god at different times.
more importantly it is also mentioned in the quran that killing another human being (innocent or not) is one of the major sins. nobody wants to quote that, i ask why? because it does not make for a good story or discussion?
its very easy to point fingers and take sides yet time and again it seems difficult to understand why people dont think.
take the case of hitler. americans taught the whole world that he was mad, crazy, what not. but i aked myself, what was the reason for hitler to do what he did to all those jews?(not that its justified).
how many times a leader gets up one fine day and says, '..lets do something about the minority..ah! why not massacre them and torture them to death..' i mean it doesnt make any sense.
what happened in germany was wrong, what happened in iraq was wrong and whats happening now is wrong.
but abusing a religion or personalites therein doesnt make it rt either.
even in the face of such adverse reactions against Islam(per se) i am a proud muslim, i love my religion, stand by it and i believe that quran is the word of God.
peace on all of u.

tallglassofmlik

Well Mohammed, then the Muslims stop practicing this verse, I'll stop mentioning quoting it. I wonder if the rest of the muslims know what you know.

masterofmint

When I saw the beheadings of these innocent lives, I have to step back for a moment and picture what it must be like to live in one of there family members shoes now. Forever there lives on this earth has changed and will never be the same.....For what..??? Because some deminted terrorist thinks that Allah has commanded him to take his hate and revenge out on innocent people by cutting off there heads? I find in my own soul a growing hatred for arabs in general and it's becoming harder and harder to even speak or look at a person of Arab descent..... What I'm talking about is exactly what these terrorist want me to feel. They want me to live my life hating the other, living in fear, so on and so on.

I'm saying to every terrorist in this world... UP YOURS!!! Allah didn't command you to take someone's life in cold blooded murder..... You fight the weak and helpless people and for that you are a coward and hell will be your final resting place... I have yet to see anyone wearing a military uniform being beheaded on video... I've seen helpless and unprotected people being beheaded. I'm seeing you killing CHILDREN AND WOMEN due to your cowardess. I see you strapping bomb belts to your own CHILDREN to blow them selves up because you are too COWARD to do it yourself...... SO I'M JUST ASKING, WHO IS REALLY THE ONE WHO IS AFFRAID HERE..????

Someday my friends, there will be peace in the world, but until then, there will be wars and innocent people being killed in the name of a religion.... Just keep in mind that hatred spreads like a desease and if you let it, it will consume you like these COWARDS..... Place yourself above it and love the ones around you and the ones you meet with every once of love you can muster from your soul. By doing this, you are not affraid and love will out shine it all............ thanks for letting me vent... "masterofmint"


david

i am a christian egyptian and i have read the quran and it is a bloody religion where sex, murder, and hate is their priority. even if chrisitans do kill some muslims, it is considered wrong but for those muslims when they kill chriistians it is considered right. think of that guys!

Dane

To all the muslims who saying christians beheading people in Nigeria. They maybe doing so but they dont do it in the name of god like the muslims. Christians know that by killing someone, they may inherit hell while you guys with a twisted mentality think you are going to heaven with 72 virgins.

Muslims kill non muslims in the name of god. That is exactly what your prophet did his entire life.

Those of you who quote Duetronomy, kindly note that we follow the new testament and not the old testament. We beleive in what christ taught us in the new testament while old testament is history.

peaceowork

Saying all Muslems believe in beheadings is like saying all Christians kill abortion doctors.

It is simply not true.

I have searched many english versions of the Quran and foundNO MENTION OF THE WORD "BEHEAD" in any of the texts.

I am a non-denominational theist, and I pray peace upon you all.

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